What are the effects of a Dispel Magic on a Conjure Elemental spell?












14












$begingroup$


If you cast a "successful" Dispel Magic in the following cases, what are the possible outcomes?




  1. An active Conure Elemental spell, i.e. the caster is maintaining concentration at the time you cast Dispel Magic on it.

  2. An elemental that is the result of a Conjure Elemental spell where concentration has been lost, i.e. when the following condition described in the spell has occurred:



If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it. (PHB p.225)




I would like to know in what case, if any, the Elemental disappears as a result of the Dispel Magic.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$

















    14












    $begingroup$


    If you cast a "successful" Dispel Magic in the following cases, what are the possible outcomes?




    1. An active Conure Elemental spell, i.e. the caster is maintaining concentration at the time you cast Dispel Magic on it.

    2. An elemental that is the result of a Conjure Elemental spell where concentration has been lost, i.e. when the following condition described in the spell has occurred:



    If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it. (PHB p.225)




    I would like to know in what case, if any, the Elemental disappears as a result of the Dispel Magic.










    share|improve this question









    $endgroup$















      14












      14








      14





      $begingroup$


      If you cast a "successful" Dispel Magic in the following cases, what are the possible outcomes?




      1. An active Conure Elemental spell, i.e. the caster is maintaining concentration at the time you cast Dispel Magic on it.

      2. An elemental that is the result of a Conjure Elemental spell where concentration has been lost, i.e. when the following condition described in the spell has occurred:



      If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it. (PHB p.225)




      I would like to know in what case, if any, the Elemental disappears as a result of the Dispel Magic.










      share|improve this question









      $endgroup$




      If you cast a "successful" Dispel Magic in the following cases, what are the possible outcomes?




      1. An active Conure Elemental spell, i.e. the caster is maintaining concentration at the time you cast Dispel Magic on it.

      2. An elemental that is the result of a Conjure Elemental spell where concentration has been lost, i.e. when the following condition described in the spell has occurred:



      If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it. (PHB p.225)




      I would like to know in what case, if any, the Elemental disappears as a result of the Dispel Magic.







      dnd-5e spells summoning






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 5 hours ago









      ProtonfluxProtonflux

      8,50411961




      8,50411961






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          12












          $begingroup$

          Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



          The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



          Case 2) There is no spell to dispel, the elemental is unaffected:



          The spell has already ended as concentration has been broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell.



          Conjure Elemental (PHB p.225)




          Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour




          Concentration (PHB p.203):




          Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.




          Therefore while the elemental persists for an hour after the spell ends, it is no longer part of an active spell effect so there is nothing to dispel, the elemental became free of the summoning spell when concentration was lost.



          Another way of looking at it is after the spell ends due to loss of concentration, the elemental exists as an environmental change rather than a spell effect. It can't be dispelled any more than the environmental effects of a delayed blast fireball (PHB p.231) can be dispelled following loss of concentration.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$





















            3












            $begingroup$

            In both cases, the elemental disappears



            Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



            The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



            Case 2) The spell is still active, it ends, and the elemental disappears:



            Normally spells end when the concentration required is broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell, however, Conjure Elemental has a clause that specifically overrides the general rule for concentration spells ending:




            If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, [...] and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




            There is also the line:




            The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.




            Since the elemental doesn't disappear when the concentration is broken, the spell can't have ended, and Dispel Magic is free to end the spell and make the elemental disappear.



            See this Sage Advice where Jeremy Crawford implies (strongly, but in classic JC pattern refuses to clearly state) that a casting of Conjure Elemental doesn't end when concentration is broken.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              "The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends." How does that help prove your point? I don't see its relevance.
              $endgroup$
              – Rubiksmoose
              4 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Because if breaking concentration on the spell caused it to end, then the elemental would disappear (as per the line). Since breaking concentration on the spell specifically doesn't cause the elemental to disappear, the spell can't have ended when the concentration was broken.
              $endgroup$
              – GreySage
              3 hours ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              doesn't specific vs general override that though since the spell says what happens earlier in the case that concentration is broken?
              $endgroup$
              – Rubiksmoose
              3 hours ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              I also think you might misreading what JC is saying. Did you see his last tweet in that thread? "A concentration spell ends when your concentration on it ends. That's the bedrock of the concentration rule." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Can you quote the part where you think he is implying otherwise?
              $endgroup$
              – Rubiksmoose
              3 hours ago








            • 1




              $begingroup$
              It seems to me that putting the two quoted lines of the spell in this order is somewhat misleading. In the actual spell, the line about the elemental disappearing "if the spell ends" is first, while the statement that it doesn't disappear if you lose concentration is second. That sets up the second statement as an exception to a general statement. But placing them in the opposite order in this answer you're kind of removing that implication.
              $endgroup$
              – Gandalfmeansme
              2 hours ago



















            1












            $begingroup$

            The Elemental vanishes in both cases



            In the first case, the elemental is part of an active spell effect, so dispelling it causes the elemental to vanish. This is pretty cut-and-dry.



            Less so for the second case.



            Is the Disappearance of the Elemental a Spell Effect?



            Normally, spells end when Concentration ends. For the vast majority of spells in 5th edition D&D, this is true, and does not need adjudicating, but for the case where the Elemental has broken free, we need to decide whether the spell has ended or not.



            The hint that, to me, says the spell continues after concentration is broken is in the mechanism by which the elemental vanishes:




            If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




            Emphasis mine



            The spell's description doesn't specify what kind of mechanism is being used to cause the Elemental to vanish. It only says that, as part of said description for the spell's effect, the Elemental vanishes. Therefore, the effect that causes the Elemental to vanish is part of the spell's effect, and dispellable.



            Counterpoint: what if it's not a spell effect?



            In order for this effect to not be dispellable, the effect would need to be provably a non-spell magical effect. There's a couple of ways this could be true.



            The description for Conjure Elemental could contain a passage like this:




            If Conjure Elemental's final effect were a non-spell effect:



            "and 1 hour after you summoned it, the plane from which the elemental came from pulls the elemental back, causing it to disappear"




            But the spell contains no such language.



            Alternatively, the vanishing of the elemental would be a non-spell effect if it were an innate property of the elemental. But there are no Elemental creatures in 5e that have any Plane-shifting ability, or a "time limit" that causes them to return to their plane of origin.



            The only other possibility is that the Inner Planes (where most elementals come from) would need to describe such a phenomenon that "pulls" rogue Elementals back to where they came from. But at least in the Player's Handbook, there's no such description.



            Conclusion



            Because the vanishing of the Elemental is




            • Described as part of the effects of a spell, and

            • Not explicitly described as being the effect of some other natural phenomena (magical or otherwise),


            We therefore conclude that the vanishing of the elemental is a spell effect, and therefore dispellable. And because the spell specifically says the elemental vanishes when the spell ends, the elemental must vanish when the spell is dispelled.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













              Your Answer





              StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
              return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
              StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
              StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
              });
              });
              }, "mathjax-editing");

              StackExchange.ready(function() {
              var channelOptions = {
              tags: "".split(" "),
              id: "122"
              };
              initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

              StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
              // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
              if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
              StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
              createEditor();
              });
              }
              else {
              createEditor();
              }
              });

              function createEditor() {
              StackExchange.prepareEditor({
              heartbeatType: 'answer',
              autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
              convertImagesToLinks: false,
              noModals: true,
              showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
              reputationToPostImages: null,
              bindNavPrevention: true,
              postfix: "",
              imageUploader: {
              brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
              contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
              allowUrls: true
              },
              noCode: true, onDemand: true,
              discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
              ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
              });


              }
              });














              draft saved

              draft discarded


















              StackExchange.ready(
              function () {
              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f140740%2fwhat-are-the-effects-of-a-dispel-magic-on-a-conjure-elemental-spell%23new-answer', 'question_page');
              }
              );

              Post as a guest















              Required, but never shown

























              3 Answers
              3






              active

              oldest

              votes








              3 Answers
              3






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              12












              $begingroup$

              Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



              The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



              Case 2) There is no spell to dispel, the elemental is unaffected:



              The spell has already ended as concentration has been broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell.



              Conjure Elemental (PHB p.225)




              Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour




              Concentration (PHB p.203):




              Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.




              Therefore while the elemental persists for an hour after the spell ends, it is no longer part of an active spell effect so there is nothing to dispel, the elemental became free of the summoning spell when concentration was lost.



              Another way of looking at it is after the spell ends due to loss of concentration, the elemental exists as an environmental change rather than a spell effect. It can't be dispelled any more than the environmental effects of a delayed blast fireball (PHB p.231) can be dispelled following loss of concentration.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$


















                12












                $begingroup$

                Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



                The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



                Case 2) There is no spell to dispel, the elemental is unaffected:



                The spell has already ended as concentration has been broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell.



                Conjure Elemental (PHB p.225)




                Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour




                Concentration (PHB p.203):




                Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.




                Therefore while the elemental persists for an hour after the spell ends, it is no longer part of an active spell effect so there is nothing to dispel, the elemental became free of the summoning spell when concentration was lost.



                Another way of looking at it is after the spell ends due to loss of concentration, the elemental exists as an environmental change rather than a spell effect. It can't be dispelled any more than the environmental effects of a delayed blast fireball (PHB p.231) can be dispelled following loss of concentration.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$
















                  12












                  12








                  12





                  $begingroup$

                  Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



                  The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



                  Case 2) There is no spell to dispel, the elemental is unaffected:



                  The spell has already ended as concentration has been broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell.



                  Conjure Elemental (PHB p.225)




                  Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour




                  Concentration (PHB p.203):




                  Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.




                  Therefore while the elemental persists for an hour after the spell ends, it is no longer part of an active spell effect so there is nothing to dispel, the elemental became free of the summoning spell when concentration was lost.



                  Another way of looking at it is after the spell ends due to loss of concentration, the elemental exists as an environmental change rather than a spell effect. It can't be dispelled any more than the environmental effects of a delayed blast fireball (PHB p.231) can be dispelled following loss of concentration.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



                  The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



                  Case 2) There is no spell to dispel, the elemental is unaffected:



                  The spell has already ended as concentration has been broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell.



                  Conjure Elemental (PHB p.225)




                  Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour




                  Concentration (PHB p.203):




                  Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.




                  Therefore while the elemental persists for an hour after the spell ends, it is no longer part of an active spell effect so there is nothing to dispel, the elemental became free of the summoning spell when concentration was lost.



                  Another way of looking at it is after the spell ends due to loss of concentration, the elemental exists as an environmental change rather than a spell effect. It can't be dispelled any more than the environmental effects of a delayed blast fireball (PHB p.231) can be dispelled following loss of concentration.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 5 hours ago









                  Sdjz

                  11.4k45597




                  11.4k45597










                  answered 5 hours ago









                  ProtonfluxProtonflux

                  8,50411961




                  8,50411961

























                      3












                      $begingroup$

                      In both cases, the elemental disappears



                      Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



                      The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



                      Case 2) The spell is still active, it ends, and the elemental disappears:



                      Normally spells end when the concentration required is broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell, however, Conjure Elemental has a clause that specifically overrides the general rule for concentration spells ending:




                      If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, [...] and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                      There is also the line:




                      The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.




                      Since the elemental doesn't disappear when the concentration is broken, the spell can't have ended, and Dispel Magic is free to end the spell and make the elemental disappear.



                      See this Sage Advice where Jeremy Crawford implies (strongly, but in classic JC pattern refuses to clearly state) that a casting of Conjure Elemental doesn't end when concentration is broken.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        "The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends." How does that help prove your point? I don't see its relevance.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        Because if breaking concentration on the spell caused it to end, then the elemental would disappear (as per the line). Since breaking concentration on the spell specifically doesn't cause the elemental to disappear, the spell can't have ended when the concentration was broken.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GreySage
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        doesn't specific vs general override that though since the spell says what happens earlier in the case that concentration is broken?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I also think you might misreading what JC is saying. Did you see his last tweet in that thread? "A concentration spell ends when your concentration on it ends. That's the bedrock of the concentration rule." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Can you quote the part where you think he is implying otherwise?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        It seems to me that putting the two quoted lines of the spell in this order is somewhat misleading. In the actual spell, the line about the elemental disappearing "if the spell ends" is first, while the statement that it doesn't disappear if you lose concentration is second. That sets up the second statement as an exception to a general statement. But placing them in the opposite order in this answer you're kind of removing that implication.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gandalfmeansme
                        2 hours ago
















                      3












                      $begingroup$

                      In both cases, the elemental disappears



                      Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



                      The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



                      Case 2) The spell is still active, it ends, and the elemental disappears:



                      Normally spells end when the concentration required is broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell, however, Conjure Elemental has a clause that specifically overrides the general rule for concentration spells ending:




                      If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, [...] and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                      There is also the line:




                      The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.




                      Since the elemental doesn't disappear when the concentration is broken, the spell can't have ended, and Dispel Magic is free to end the spell and make the elemental disappear.



                      See this Sage Advice where Jeremy Crawford implies (strongly, but in classic JC pattern refuses to clearly state) that a casting of Conjure Elemental doesn't end when concentration is broken.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        "The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends." How does that help prove your point? I don't see its relevance.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        Because if breaking concentration on the spell caused it to end, then the elemental would disappear (as per the line). Since breaking concentration on the spell specifically doesn't cause the elemental to disappear, the spell can't have ended when the concentration was broken.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GreySage
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        doesn't specific vs general override that though since the spell says what happens earlier in the case that concentration is broken?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I also think you might misreading what JC is saying. Did you see his last tweet in that thread? "A concentration spell ends when your concentration on it ends. That's the bedrock of the concentration rule." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Can you quote the part where you think he is implying otherwise?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        It seems to me that putting the two quoted lines of the spell in this order is somewhat misleading. In the actual spell, the line about the elemental disappearing "if the spell ends" is first, while the statement that it doesn't disappear if you lose concentration is second. That sets up the second statement as an exception to a general statement. But placing them in the opposite order in this answer you're kind of removing that implication.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gandalfmeansme
                        2 hours ago














                      3












                      3








                      3





                      $begingroup$

                      In both cases, the elemental disappears



                      Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



                      The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



                      Case 2) The spell is still active, it ends, and the elemental disappears:



                      Normally spells end when the concentration required is broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell, however, Conjure Elemental has a clause that specifically overrides the general rule for concentration spells ending:




                      If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, [...] and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                      There is also the line:




                      The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.




                      Since the elemental doesn't disappear when the concentration is broken, the spell can't have ended, and Dispel Magic is free to end the spell and make the elemental disappear.



                      See this Sage Advice where Jeremy Crawford implies (strongly, but in classic JC pattern refuses to clearly state) that a casting of Conjure Elemental doesn't end when concentration is broken.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      In both cases, the elemental disappears



                      Case 1) The spell ends and the elemental disappears:



                      The clause about concentration does not apply, the elemental exists as the effect of an active spell, if the magic is dispelled the elemental goes.



                      Case 2) The spell is still active, it ends, and the elemental disappears:



                      Normally spells end when the concentration required is broken and Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell, however, Conjure Elemental has a clause that specifically overrides the general rule for concentration spells ending:




                      If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, [...] and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                      There is also the line:




                      The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.




                      Since the elemental doesn't disappear when the concentration is broken, the spell can't have ended, and Dispel Magic is free to end the spell and make the elemental disappear.



                      See this Sage Advice where Jeremy Crawford implies (strongly, but in classic JC pattern refuses to clearly state) that a casting of Conjure Elemental doesn't end when concentration is broken.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited 3 hours ago

























                      answered 4 hours ago









                      GreySageGreySage

                      15.2k45195




                      15.2k45195












                      • $begingroup$
                        "The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends." How does that help prove your point? I don't see its relevance.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        Because if breaking concentration on the spell caused it to end, then the elemental would disappear (as per the line). Since breaking concentration on the spell specifically doesn't cause the elemental to disappear, the spell can't have ended when the concentration was broken.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GreySage
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        doesn't specific vs general override that though since the spell says what happens earlier in the case that concentration is broken?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I also think you might misreading what JC is saying. Did you see his last tweet in that thread? "A concentration spell ends when your concentration on it ends. That's the bedrock of the concentration rule." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Can you quote the part where you think he is implying otherwise?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        It seems to me that putting the two quoted lines of the spell in this order is somewhat misleading. In the actual spell, the line about the elemental disappearing "if the spell ends" is first, while the statement that it doesn't disappear if you lose concentration is second. That sets up the second statement as an exception to a general statement. But placing them in the opposite order in this answer you're kind of removing that implication.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gandalfmeansme
                        2 hours ago


















                      • $begingroup$
                        "The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends." How does that help prove your point? I don't see its relevance.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        Because if breaking concentration on the spell caused it to end, then the elemental would disappear (as per the line). Since breaking concentration on the spell specifically doesn't cause the elemental to disappear, the spell can't have ended when the concentration was broken.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GreySage
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        doesn't specific vs general override that though since the spell says what happens earlier in the case that concentration is broken?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I also think you might misreading what JC is saying. Did you see his last tweet in that thread? "A concentration spell ends when your concentration on it ends. That's the bedrock of the concentration rule." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Can you quote the part where you think he is implying otherwise?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rubiksmoose
                        3 hours ago








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        It seems to me that putting the two quoted lines of the spell in this order is somewhat misleading. In the actual spell, the line about the elemental disappearing "if the spell ends" is first, while the statement that it doesn't disappear if you lose concentration is second. That sets up the second statement as an exception to a general statement. But placing them in the opposite order in this answer you're kind of removing that implication.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gandalfmeansme
                        2 hours ago
















                      $begingroup$
                      "The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends." How does that help prove your point? I don't see its relevance.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      4 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      "The elemental disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends." How does that help prove your point? I don't see its relevance.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      4 hours ago












                      $begingroup$
                      Because if breaking concentration on the spell caused it to end, then the elemental would disappear (as per the line). Since breaking concentration on the spell specifically doesn't cause the elemental to disappear, the spell can't have ended when the concentration was broken.
                      $endgroup$
                      – GreySage
                      3 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      Because if breaking concentration on the spell caused it to end, then the elemental would disappear (as per the line). Since breaking concentration on the spell specifically doesn't cause the elemental to disappear, the spell can't have ended when the concentration was broken.
                      $endgroup$
                      – GreySage
                      3 hours ago




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      doesn't specific vs general override that though since the spell says what happens earlier in the case that concentration is broken?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      3 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      doesn't specific vs general override that though since the spell says what happens earlier in the case that concentration is broken?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      3 hours ago




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      I also think you might misreading what JC is saying. Did you see his last tweet in that thread? "A concentration spell ends when your concentration on it ends. That's the bedrock of the concentration rule." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Can you quote the part where you think he is implying otherwise?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      3 hours ago






                      $begingroup$
                      I also think you might misreading what JC is saying. Did you see his last tweet in that thread? "A concentration spell ends when your concentration on it ends. That's the bedrock of the concentration rule." Seems pretty unambiguous to me? Can you quote the part where you think he is implying otherwise?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      3 hours ago






                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      It seems to me that putting the two quoted lines of the spell in this order is somewhat misleading. In the actual spell, the line about the elemental disappearing "if the spell ends" is first, while the statement that it doesn't disappear if you lose concentration is second. That sets up the second statement as an exception to a general statement. But placing them in the opposite order in this answer you're kind of removing that implication.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Gandalfmeansme
                      2 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      It seems to me that putting the two quoted lines of the spell in this order is somewhat misleading. In the actual spell, the line about the elemental disappearing "if the spell ends" is first, while the statement that it doesn't disappear if you lose concentration is second. That sets up the second statement as an exception to a general statement. But placing them in the opposite order in this answer you're kind of removing that implication.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Gandalfmeansme
                      2 hours ago











                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      The Elemental vanishes in both cases



                      In the first case, the elemental is part of an active spell effect, so dispelling it causes the elemental to vanish. This is pretty cut-and-dry.



                      Less so for the second case.



                      Is the Disappearance of the Elemental a Spell Effect?



                      Normally, spells end when Concentration ends. For the vast majority of spells in 5th edition D&D, this is true, and does not need adjudicating, but for the case where the Elemental has broken free, we need to decide whether the spell has ended or not.



                      The hint that, to me, says the spell continues after concentration is broken is in the mechanism by which the elemental vanishes:




                      If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                      Emphasis mine



                      The spell's description doesn't specify what kind of mechanism is being used to cause the Elemental to vanish. It only says that, as part of said description for the spell's effect, the Elemental vanishes. Therefore, the effect that causes the Elemental to vanish is part of the spell's effect, and dispellable.



                      Counterpoint: what if it's not a spell effect?



                      In order for this effect to not be dispellable, the effect would need to be provably a non-spell magical effect. There's a couple of ways this could be true.



                      The description for Conjure Elemental could contain a passage like this:




                      If Conjure Elemental's final effect were a non-spell effect:



                      "and 1 hour after you summoned it, the plane from which the elemental came from pulls the elemental back, causing it to disappear"




                      But the spell contains no such language.



                      Alternatively, the vanishing of the elemental would be a non-spell effect if it were an innate property of the elemental. But there are no Elemental creatures in 5e that have any Plane-shifting ability, or a "time limit" that causes them to return to their plane of origin.



                      The only other possibility is that the Inner Planes (where most elementals come from) would need to describe such a phenomenon that "pulls" rogue Elementals back to where they came from. But at least in the Player's Handbook, there's no such description.



                      Conclusion



                      Because the vanishing of the Elemental is




                      • Described as part of the effects of a spell, and

                      • Not explicitly described as being the effect of some other natural phenomena (magical or otherwise),


                      We therefore conclude that the vanishing of the elemental is a spell effect, and therefore dispellable. And because the spell specifically says the elemental vanishes when the spell ends, the elemental must vanish when the spell is dispelled.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$


















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        The Elemental vanishes in both cases



                        In the first case, the elemental is part of an active spell effect, so dispelling it causes the elemental to vanish. This is pretty cut-and-dry.



                        Less so for the second case.



                        Is the Disappearance of the Elemental a Spell Effect?



                        Normally, spells end when Concentration ends. For the vast majority of spells in 5th edition D&D, this is true, and does not need adjudicating, but for the case where the Elemental has broken free, we need to decide whether the spell has ended or not.



                        The hint that, to me, says the spell continues after concentration is broken is in the mechanism by which the elemental vanishes:




                        If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                        Emphasis mine



                        The spell's description doesn't specify what kind of mechanism is being used to cause the Elemental to vanish. It only says that, as part of said description for the spell's effect, the Elemental vanishes. Therefore, the effect that causes the Elemental to vanish is part of the spell's effect, and dispellable.



                        Counterpoint: what if it's not a spell effect?



                        In order for this effect to not be dispellable, the effect would need to be provably a non-spell magical effect. There's a couple of ways this could be true.



                        The description for Conjure Elemental could contain a passage like this:




                        If Conjure Elemental's final effect were a non-spell effect:



                        "and 1 hour after you summoned it, the plane from which the elemental came from pulls the elemental back, causing it to disappear"




                        But the spell contains no such language.



                        Alternatively, the vanishing of the elemental would be a non-spell effect if it were an innate property of the elemental. But there are no Elemental creatures in 5e that have any Plane-shifting ability, or a "time limit" that causes them to return to their plane of origin.



                        The only other possibility is that the Inner Planes (where most elementals come from) would need to describe such a phenomenon that "pulls" rogue Elementals back to where they came from. But at least in the Player's Handbook, there's no such description.



                        Conclusion



                        Because the vanishing of the Elemental is




                        • Described as part of the effects of a spell, and

                        • Not explicitly described as being the effect of some other natural phenomena (magical or otherwise),


                        We therefore conclude that the vanishing of the elemental is a spell effect, and therefore dispellable. And because the spell specifically says the elemental vanishes when the spell ends, the elemental must vanish when the spell is dispelled.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$
















                          1












                          1








                          1





                          $begingroup$

                          The Elemental vanishes in both cases



                          In the first case, the elemental is part of an active spell effect, so dispelling it causes the elemental to vanish. This is pretty cut-and-dry.



                          Less so for the second case.



                          Is the Disappearance of the Elemental a Spell Effect?



                          Normally, spells end when Concentration ends. For the vast majority of spells in 5th edition D&D, this is true, and does not need adjudicating, but for the case where the Elemental has broken free, we need to decide whether the spell has ended or not.



                          The hint that, to me, says the spell continues after concentration is broken is in the mechanism by which the elemental vanishes:




                          If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                          Emphasis mine



                          The spell's description doesn't specify what kind of mechanism is being used to cause the Elemental to vanish. It only says that, as part of said description for the spell's effect, the Elemental vanishes. Therefore, the effect that causes the Elemental to vanish is part of the spell's effect, and dispellable.



                          Counterpoint: what if it's not a spell effect?



                          In order for this effect to not be dispellable, the effect would need to be provably a non-spell magical effect. There's a couple of ways this could be true.



                          The description for Conjure Elemental could contain a passage like this:




                          If Conjure Elemental's final effect were a non-spell effect:



                          "and 1 hour after you summoned it, the plane from which the elemental came from pulls the elemental back, causing it to disappear"




                          But the spell contains no such language.



                          Alternatively, the vanishing of the elemental would be a non-spell effect if it were an innate property of the elemental. But there are no Elemental creatures in 5e that have any Plane-shifting ability, or a "time limit" that causes them to return to their plane of origin.



                          The only other possibility is that the Inner Planes (where most elementals come from) would need to describe such a phenomenon that "pulls" rogue Elementals back to where they came from. But at least in the Player's Handbook, there's no such description.



                          Conclusion



                          Because the vanishing of the Elemental is




                          • Described as part of the effects of a spell, and

                          • Not explicitly described as being the effect of some other natural phenomena (magical or otherwise),


                          We therefore conclude that the vanishing of the elemental is a spell effect, and therefore dispellable. And because the spell specifically says the elemental vanishes when the spell ends, the elemental must vanish when the spell is dispelled.






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$



                          The Elemental vanishes in both cases



                          In the first case, the elemental is part of an active spell effect, so dispelling it causes the elemental to vanish. This is pretty cut-and-dry.



                          Less so for the second case.



                          Is the Disappearance of the Elemental a Spell Effect?



                          Normally, spells end when Concentration ends. For the vast majority of spells in 5th edition D&D, this is true, and does not need adjudicating, but for the case where the Elemental has broken free, we need to decide whether the spell has ended or not.



                          The hint that, to me, says the spell continues after concentration is broken is in the mechanism by which the elemental vanishes:




                          If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack. It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.




                          Emphasis mine



                          The spell's description doesn't specify what kind of mechanism is being used to cause the Elemental to vanish. It only says that, as part of said description for the spell's effect, the Elemental vanishes. Therefore, the effect that causes the Elemental to vanish is part of the spell's effect, and dispellable.



                          Counterpoint: what if it's not a spell effect?



                          In order for this effect to not be dispellable, the effect would need to be provably a non-spell magical effect. There's a couple of ways this could be true.



                          The description for Conjure Elemental could contain a passage like this:




                          If Conjure Elemental's final effect were a non-spell effect:



                          "and 1 hour after you summoned it, the plane from which the elemental came from pulls the elemental back, causing it to disappear"




                          But the spell contains no such language.



                          Alternatively, the vanishing of the elemental would be a non-spell effect if it were an innate property of the elemental. But there are no Elemental creatures in 5e that have any Plane-shifting ability, or a "time limit" that causes them to return to their plane of origin.



                          The only other possibility is that the Inner Planes (where most elementals come from) would need to describe such a phenomenon that "pulls" rogue Elementals back to where they came from. But at least in the Player's Handbook, there's no such description.



                          Conclusion



                          Because the vanishing of the Elemental is




                          • Described as part of the effects of a spell, and

                          • Not explicitly described as being the effect of some other natural phenomena (magical or otherwise),


                          We therefore conclude that the vanishing of the elemental is a spell effect, and therefore dispellable. And because the spell specifically says the elemental vanishes when the spell ends, the elemental must vanish when the spell is dispelled.







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited 1 hour ago

























                          answered 2 hours ago









                          XiremaXirema

                          18.2k250111




                          18.2k250111






























                              draft saved

                              draft discarded




















































                              Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


                              • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                              But avoid



                              • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                              • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                              Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                              To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                              draft saved


                              draft discarded














                              StackExchange.ready(
                              function () {
                              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f140740%2fwhat-are-the-effects-of-a-dispel-magic-on-a-conjure-elemental-spell%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                              }
                              );

                              Post as a guest















                              Required, but never shown





















































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown

































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown







                              Popular posts from this blog

                              Усть-Каменогорск

                              Халкинская богословская школа

                              Where does the word Sparryheid come from and mean?