What is a “Hobbesian trap”?












14















A recent Economist article (see The drug war hits Central America) uses something called a Hobbesian trap like this:




Central America has fallen into a
Hobbesian trap: the better-off make
private arrangements—there are five
times as many private security guards
as policemen or soldiers in Guatemala,
and four times as many in Honduras—and
therefore block efforts to levy the
tax revenues necessary to strengthen
the state.




A simple Google search turns out to be unhelpful. What is this Hobbesian trap? What is the origin of it? What is a typical context where a writer can employ it?










share|improve this question

























  • Reminds me of the tragedy of the commons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

    – EsperantoSpeaker1
    Oct 7 '15 at 16:16
















14















A recent Economist article (see The drug war hits Central America) uses something called a Hobbesian trap like this:




Central America has fallen into a
Hobbesian trap: the better-off make
private arrangements—there are five
times as many private security guards
as policemen or soldiers in Guatemala,
and four times as many in Honduras—and
therefore block efforts to levy the
tax revenues necessary to strengthen
the state.




A simple Google search turns out to be unhelpful. What is this Hobbesian trap? What is the origin of it? What is a typical context where a writer can employ it?










share|improve this question

























  • Reminds me of the tragedy of the commons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

    – EsperantoSpeaker1
    Oct 7 '15 at 16:16














14












14








14


2






A recent Economist article (see The drug war hits Central America) uses something called a Hobbesian trap like this:




Central America has fallen into a
Hobbesian trap: the better-off make
private arrangements—there are five
times as many private security guards
as policemen or soldiers in Guatemala,
and four times as many in Honduras—and
therefore block efforts to levy the
tax revenues necessary to strengthen
the state.




A simple Google search turns out to be unhelpful. What is this Hobbesian trap? What is the origin of it? What is a typical context where a writer can employ it?










share|improve this question
















A recent Economist article (see The drug war hits Central America) uses something called a Hobbesian trap like this:




Central America has fallen into a
Hobbesian trap: the better-off make
private arrangements—there are five
times as many private security guards
as policemen or soldiers in Guatemala,
and four times as many in Honduras—and
therefore block efforts to levy the
tax revenues necessary to strengthen
the state.




A simple Google search turns out to be unhelpful. What is this Hobbesian trap? What is the origin of it? What is a typical context where a writer can employ it?







meaning-in-context word-usage






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Apr 17 '11 at 20:12









Uticensis

13.2k60131231




13.2k60131231










asked Apr 17 '11 at 7:21









Ashwin NanjappaAshwin Nanjappa

2571410




2571410













  • Reminds me of the tragedy of the commons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

    – EsperantoSpeaker1
    Oct 7 '15 at 16:16



















  • Reminds me of the tragedy of the commons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

    – EsperantoSpeaker1
    Oct 7 '15 at 16:16

















Reminds me of the tragedy of the commons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

– EsperantoSpeaker1
Oct 7 '15 at 16:16





Reminds me of the tragedy of the commons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

– EsperantoSpeaker1
Oct 7 '15 at 16:16










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















23














Thomas Hobbes believed that human beings are essentially ruthless competitors, with only their personal interest at heart. Living in a state of anarchy, each man would crave another man's possessions and make his life a living hell. That is why an all-powerful state is necessary.



But why should it be a hell? Cannot men co-operate spontaneously? They cannot, says Hobbes, because they fundamentally distrust one another. Suppose I did not know what my neighbour was after, and suppose he were as strong as I was. He might intend to rob me or use me as his slave. I'd need a club to defend myself, though I was not planning to attack him myself. He, seeing my club, and not knowing what to expect of me either, would feel the need to forge a sword. For fear of the sword, I'd build great walls, and a cannon just in case. In no time, both of us would be occupied with protecting ourselves most of the time, says Hobbes, instead of producing something useful. We would have fallen into the Hobbesian Trap. And, where there are weapons and suspicion, war is inevitable. So freedom and distrust lead to waste and violence.



The fact that there are so many private guards in Guatemala shows that a large part of its resources go towards this unproductive business; if the state could handle it, a far lower number of policemen would be able to serve both me and my neighbour at the same time. (A complicating issue, and a reason why this probably isn't a good example of a Hobbesian Trap, is that the police are corrupt and fail to operate effectively; some parties probably even feel forced to protect themselves against the police.) Hobbes says everyone will fall into this trap where a strong state with a monopoly on violence is lacking.



A good example of a metaphorical Hobbesian Trap is an arms race, such as the one between America and the USSR, or Iran and Iraq during Saddam Hussein, or the countries of Europe prior to World War I. Note that a politician may abuse the Trap, by exploiting the distrust of his nation with regard to other nations in order to quell internal disagreement and strengthen his own position.



Consider also the Prisoner's Dilemma: the fact that one prisoner does not trust the other causes them both to make the wrong decision, resulting in a situation much worse for each than if they had worked together.



Theft causes shopkeepers, being forced to spend money on locks and security systems, to increase the prices of their wares. The thieves in turn then have to purchase at greater cost: they need the wares in any case, and the shopkeeper's security measures prevent them from stealing the wares. So both thieves and shopkeepers are worse off than if thievery didn't exist; but, if there were no security system, thievery would again pay off, etc. etc. This is not a pure example, since it is only the thief that is homini lupus—not the shopkeeper too, as it should be in a true Hobbesian Trap.






share|improve this answer





















  • 2





    Love your answer, @Cerberus, except for the bit calling an arms race and the Iran-Iraq war a "Hobbesian trap." Can a massively coordinated arms race such as the Cold War, undertaken by the vast bureaucracies of 2 superpowers really be called Hobbesian? I don't think everything destructive and senseless need fall under that penumbra; to me, "Hobbesian" is more associated with pre-state societies and petty warlordism. E.g., more Mogadishu than Moscow. In fact, I think your examples, rather than being an exemplar of a Hobbesian trap, demonstrate the dangers of taking Hobbes' philosophy too far.

    – Uticensis
    Apr 18 '11 at 1:33













  • @Billare: I see your point. I agree that the organized, non-individual aspect of the parties in a global arms race is non-Hobbesian. The philosopher wasn't thinking of this when he described the war of all against all. Even so, the trap of mutual distrust causing violence is itself akin to the way Hobbes imagined individuals would act in anarchy; it is basically a metaphor, where a nation stands for a man and its arsenal for his club. It was in this metaphorical sense that the journalist intended it. Do you think such a metaphor would clash too much? I am not entirely uncharmed with it...

    – Cerberus
    Apr 18 '11 at 23:41











  • @Billare: In addition, I think Hobbes might feel that enduring war between the players of the global community of nations would be worse than having one great super power, dominating the others and thus preventing war. (He was probably not aware of the potentially pacifying effect of mutual assured destruction, as by the nuclear bombs of the Cold War.)

    – Cerberus
    Apr 18 '11 at 23:46



















5














As I mentioned in my answer to a related question, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes loved the idea of an all-powerful state. And, you may or may not have previously heard of one of the most influential definitions of a state, given by the first political scientist, Weber, which describes it as as an entity with a "monopoly on violence." Therefore, Hobbes would have abhorred the idea a state without a monopoly on violence, with private security guards and such, because Hobbes regarded civilization as precious and easily lost -- a weak state, without a monopoly on violence, leads eventually to a failed state, then to power vacuum, then to anarchy, a trap that is quite hard for Man to extricate himself out of. And thus we get the Hobbesian trap.






share|improve this answer

































    1














    A Hobbesian trap vs. Hobson's choice: Both are easily interchanged and used to mean the same thing, but they don't. There's no need to wax on incessantly. The confusion is in attributing a person who controls everything in offering a service; like what Thomas Hobson (1545-1631) did in hiring out horses to young Cambridge students. He gave them a Hobson's choice to ride his stallions. Students came to his stables in the early 17th century to ride horses (but Hobson's rule was, Students couldn't "pick" the horse of their choosing. Hobson directed students had to pick the horse closest to the barn when they arrived to ride & as they approached the stables.) A Hobson's choice is simply this. It still gives the receiver the choice of what they want (students came to ride a horse; they can do that) but with a condition (they can't pick the horse they want to ride). Thus,some ppl mis-attribute or call this a Hobson's "trap" or Hobbesian trap or "choice" ...but they are NOT the same thing. In a Hobson's choice, the only other option or choice is not to ride a horse at all. That is a "Hobson's choice." Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" is a good example of a Hobson's choice.



    A Hobbesian trap is so named after Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) a British Philosopher, and an earlier poster concisely laid out the parameters. In its' basic form, it's an escalating fear (example: you buy a home. It has no fence. People you don't know start leaving things on your property, so you pay to build a fence around your property to keep people out or off your lawn. Then, you realize your home has no home security system to protect your belongings, so you buy security cameras and motion sensor alarms to further deter ppl from coming onto your property. Then, you realize neighbors in your neighborhood have been burglarized, some by armed burglars, so now, you go out and buy a gun to protect you if at some point, an armed robber comes to rob you. With all this security, you can "deal" with an unknown threat from a stranger that might want to steal from you or harm you or your family. However, what if a robber still chooses to try to rob you, and instead of coming to your house with a gun, comes with a bazooka or tank to blow you out of your house? What are you going to do? You, in turn, hire an army. You feed and house them, and pay them a salary. You equip them with their own tanks and bigger bazookas to deal with the robber's one tank in an effort to be on the superior side, and keep your property from being robbed. Simplistically laid out, this is a never ending escalation, or a Hobbesian trap. A possible alternative to this trap would be if the house owner met his neighbors when he moved in. They would probably be more careful that they or their kids not leave things in your yard and no need to buy a fence or security system. That the house owner nderstood some of a robber's needs and tried to meet them. Both here, are a much cheaper solution; and, that the robber also helped alleviate the home owner's fears by both simply knowing the other as human beings. Costs on both sides go way down, and are an alternative to a Hobbesian trap. Many countries employ trade not to become ensnared in a Hobbesian trap with other nations.



    Therefore, a Hobson's choice vs. a Hobbesian trap -- both mean two completely different things; but, both are often used mistakenly as interchangeable to mean the same thing...which they don't.






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      -1














      This is probably a confusion for the phrase "Hobson's choice" - which basically means "take it or leave it".



      As Wikipedia says:




      On occasion, speakers and writers use the phrase "Hobbesian choice" instead of "Hobson's choice". They confuse the philosopher Thomas Hobbes with the relatively obscure Thomas Hobson. Notwithstanding that confused usage, the phrase, "Hobbesian choice" is historically incorrect.







      share|improve this answer
























      • When using Wikipedia, trust... but verify.

        – MT_Head
        Jun 14 '11 at 6:12











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      4 Answers
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      4 Answers
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      23














      Thomas Hobbes believed that human beings are essentially ruthless competitors, with only their personal interest at heart. Living in a state of anarchy, each man would crave another man's possessions and make his life a living hell. That is why an all-powerful state is necessary.



      But why should it be a hell? Cannot men co-operate spontaneously? They cannot, says Hobbes, because they fundamentally distrust one another. Suppose I did not know what my neighbour was after, and suppose he were as strong as I was. He might intend to rob me or use me as his slave. I'd need a club to defend myself, though I was not planning to attack him myself. He, seeing my club, and not knowing what to expect of me either, would feel the need to forge a sword. For fear of the sword, I'd build great walls, and a cannon just in case. In no time, both of us would be occupied with protecting ourselves most of the time, says Hobbes, instead of producing something useful. We would have fallen into the Hobbesian Trap. And, where there are weapons and suspicion, war is inevitable. So freedom and distrust lead to waste and violence.



      The fact that there are so many private guards in Guatemala shows that a large part of its resources go towards this unproductive business; if the state could handle it, a far lower number of policemen would be able to serve both me and my neighbour at the same time. (A complicating issue, and a reason why this probably isn't a good example of a Hobbesian Trap, is that the police are corrupt and fail to operate effectively; some parties probably even feel forced to protect themselves against the police.) Hobbes says everyone will fall into this trap where a strong state with a monopoly on violence is lacking.



      A good example of a metaphorical Hobbesian Trap is an arms race, such as the one between America and the USSR, or Iran and Iraq during Saddam Hussein, or the countries of Europe prior to World War I. Note that a politician may abuse the Trap, by exploiting the distrust of his nation with regard to other nations in order to quell internal disagreement and strengthen his own position.



      Consider also the Prisoner's Dilemma: the fact that one prisoner does not trust the other causes them both to make the wrong decision, resulting in a situation much worse for each than if they had worked together.



      Theft causes shopkeepers, being forced to spend money on locks and security systems, to increase the prices of their wares. The thieves in turn then have to purchase at greater cost: they need the wares in any case, and the shopkeeper's security measures prevent them from stealing the wares. So both thieves and shopkeepers are worse off than if thievery didn't exist; but, if there were no security system, thievery would again pay off, etc. etc. This is not a pure example, since it is only the thief that is homini lupus—not the shopkeeper too, as it should be in a true Hobbesian Trap.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 2





        Love your answer, @Cerberus, except for the bit calling an arms race and the Iran-Iraq war a "Hobbesian trap." Can a massively coordinated arms race such as the Cold War, undertaken by the vast bureaucracies of 2 superpowers really be called Hobbesian? I don't think everything destructive and senseless need fall under that penumbra; to me, "Hobbesian" is more associated with pre-state societies and petty warlordism. E.g., more Mogadishu than Moscow. In fact, I think your examples, rather than being an exemplar of a Hobbesian trap, demonstrate the dangers of taking Hobbes' philosophy too far.

        – Uticensis
        Apr 18 '11 at 1:33













      • @Billare: I see your point. I agree that the organized, non-individual aspect of the parties in a global arms race is non-Hobbesian. The philosopher wasn't thinking of this when he described the war of all against all. Even so, the trap of mutual distrust causing violence is itself akin to the way Hobbes imagined individuals would act in anarchy; it is basically a metaphor, where a nation stands for a man and its arsenal for his club. It was in this metaphorical sense that the journalist intended it. Do you think such a metaphor would clash too much? I am not entirely uncharmed with it...

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:41











      • @Billare: In addition, I think Hobbes might feel that enduring war between the players of the global community of nations would be worse than having one great super power, dominating the others and thus preventing war. (He was probably not aware of the potentially pacifying effect of mutual assured destruction, as by the nuclear bombs of the Cold War.)

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:46
















      23














      Thomas Hobbes believed that human beings are essentially ruthless competitors, with only their personal interest at heart. Living in a state of anarchy, each man would crave another man's possessions and make his life a living hell. That is why an all-powerful state is necessary.



      But why should it be a hell? Cannot men co-operate spontaneously? They cannot, says Hobbes, because they fundamentally distrust one another. Suppose I did not know what my neighbour was after, and suppose he were as strong as I was. He might intend to rob me or use me as his slave. I'd need a club to defend myself, though I was not planning to attack him myself. He, seeing my club, and not knowing what to expect of me either, would feel the need to forge a sword. For fear of the sword, I'd build great walls, and a cannon just in case. In no time, both of us would be occupied with protecting ourselves most of the time, says Hobbes, instead of producing something useful. We would have fallen into the Hobbesian Trap. And, where there are weapons and suspicion, war is inevitable. So freedom and distrust lead to waste and violence.



      The fact that there are so many private guards in Guatemala shows that a large part of its resources go towards this unproductive business; if the state could handle it, a far lower number of policemen would be able to serve both me and my neighbour at the same time. (A complicating issue, and a reason why this probably isn't a good example of a Hobbesian Trap, is that the police are corrupt and fail to operate effectively; some parties probably even feel forced to protect themselves against the police.) Hobbes says everyone will fall into this trap where a strong state with a monopoly on violence is lacking.



      A good example of a metaphorical Hobbesian Trap is an arms race, such as the one between America and the USSR, or Iran and Iraq during Saddam Hussein, or the countries of Europe prior to World War I. Note that a politician may abuse the Trap, by exploiting the distrust of his nation with regard to other nations in order to quell internal disagreement and strengthen his own position.



      Consider also the Prisoner's Dilemma: the fact that one prisoner does not trust the other causes them both to make the wrong decision, resulting in a situation much worse for each than if they had worked together.



      Theft causes shopkeepers, being forced to spend money on locks and security systems, to increase the prices of their wares. The thieves in turn then have to purchase at greater cost: they need the wares in any case, and the shopkeeper's security measures prevent them from stealing the wares. So both thieves and shopkeepers are worse off than if thievery didn't exist; but, if there were no security system, thievery would again pay off, etc. etc. This is not a pure example, since it is only the thief that is homini lupus—not the shopkeeper too, as it should be in a true Hobbesian Trap.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 2





        Love your answer, @Cerberus, except for the bit calling an arms race and the Iran-Iraq war a "Hobbesian trap." Can a massively coordinated arms race such as the Cold War, undertaken by the vast bureaucracies of 2 superpowers really be called Hobbesian? I don't think everything destructive and senseless need fall under that penumbra; to me, "Hobbesian" is more associated with pre-state societies and petty warlordism. E.g., more Mogadishu than Moscow. In fact, I think your examples, rather than being an exemplar of a Hobbesian trap, demonstrate the dangers of taking Hobbes' philosophy too far.

        – Uticensis
        Apr 18 '11 at 1:33













      • @Billare: I see your point. I agree that the organized, non-individual aspect of the parties in a global arms race is non-Hobbesian. The philosopher wasn't thinking of this when he described the war of all against all. Even so, the trap of mutual distrust causing violence is itself akin to the way Hobbes imagined individuals would act in anarchy; it is basically a metaphor, where a nation stands for a man and its arsenal for his club. It was in this metaphorical sense that the journalist intended it. Do you think such a metaphor would clash too much? I am not entirely uncharmed with it...

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:41











      • @Billare: In addition, I think Hobbes might feel that enduring war between the players of the global community of nations would be worse than having one great super power, dominating the others and thus preventing war. (He was probably not aware of the potentially pacifying effect of mutual assured destruction, as by the nuclear bombs of the Cold War.)

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:46














      23












      23








      23







      Thomas Hobbes believed that human beings are essentially ruthless competitors, with only their personal interest at heart. Living in a state of anarchy, each man would crave another man's possessions and make his life a living hell. That is why an all-powerful state is necessary.



      But why should it be a hell? Cannot men co-operate spontaneously? They cannot, says Hobbes, because they fundamentally distrust one another. Suppose I did not know what my neighbour was after, and suppose he were as strong as I was. He might intend to rob me or use me as his slave. I'd need a club to defend myself, though I was not planning to attack him myself. He, seeing my club, and not knowing what to expect of me either, would feel the need to forge a sword. For fear of the sword, I'd build great walls, and a cannon just in case. In no time, both of us would be occupied with protecting ourselves most of the time, says Hobbes, instead of producing something useful. We would have fallen into the Hobbesian Trap. And, where there are weapons and suspicion, war is inevitable. So freedom and distrust lead to waste and violence.



      The fact that there are so many private guards in Guatemala shows that a large part of its resources go towards this unproductive business; if the state could handle it, a far lower number of policemen would be able to serve both me and my neighbour at the same time. (A complicating issue, and a reason why this probably isn't a good example of a Hobbesian Trap, is that the police are corrupt and fail to operate effectively; some parties probably even feel forced to protect themselves against the police.) Hobbes says everyone will fall into this trap where a strong state with a monopoly on violence is lacking.



      A good example of a metaphorical Hobbesian Trap is an arms race, such as the one between America and the USSR, or Iran and Iraq during Saddam Hussein, or the countries of Europe prior to World War I. Note that a politician may abuse the Trap, by exploiting the distrust of his nation with regard to other nations in order to quell internal disagreement and strengthen his own position.



      Consider also the Prisoner's Dilemma: the fact that one prisoner does not trust the other causes them both to make the wrong decision, resulting in a situation much worse for each than if they had worked together.



      Theft causes shopkeepers, being forced to spend money on locks and security systems, to increase the prices of their wares. The thieves in turn then have to purchase at greater cost: they need the wares in any case, and the shopkeeper's security measures prevent them from stealing the wares. So both thieves and shopkeepers are worse off than if thievery didn't exist; but, if there were no security system, thievery would again pay off, etc. etc. This is not a pure example, since it is only the thief that is homini lupus—not the shopkeeper too, as it should be in a true Hobbesian Trap.






      share|improve this answer















      Thomas Hobbes believed that human beings are essentially ruthless competitors, with only their personal interest at heart. Living in a state of anarchy, each man would crave another man's possessions and make his life a living hell. That is why an all-powerful state is necessary.



      But why should it be a hell? Cannot men co-operate spontaneously? They cannot, says Hobbes, because they fundamentally distrust one another. Suppose I did not know what my neighbour was after, and suppose he were as strong as I was. He might intend to rob me or use me as his slave. I'd need a club to defend myself, though I was not planning to attack him myself. He, seeing my club, and not knowing what to expect of me either, would feel the need to forge a sword. For fear of the sword, I'd build great walls, and a cannon just in case. In no time, both of us would be occupied with protecting ourselves most of the time, says Hobbes, instead of producing something useful. We would have fallen into the Hobbesian Trap. And, where there are weapons and suspicion, war is inevitable. So freedom and distrust lead to waste and violence.



      The fact that there are so many private guards in Guatemala shows that a large part of its resources go towards this unproductive business; if the state could handle it, a far lower number of policemen would be able to serve both me and my neighbour at the same time. (A complicating issue, and a reason why this probably isn't a good example of a Hobbesian Trap, is that the police are corrupt and fail to operate effectively; some parties probably even feel forced to protect themselves against the police.) Hobbes says everyone will fall into this trap where a strong state with a monopoly on violence is lacking.



      A good example of a metaphorical Hobbesian Trap is an arms race, such as the one between America and the USSR, or Iran and Iraq during Saddam Hussein, or the countries of Europe prior to World War I. Note that a politician may abuse the Trap, by exploiting the distrust of his nation with regard to other nations in order to quell internal disagreement and strengthen his own position.



      Consider also the Prisoner's Dilemma: the fact that one prisoner does not trust the other causes them both to make the wrong decision, resulting in a situation much worse for each than if they had worked together.



      Theft causes shopkeepers, being forced to spend money on locks and security systems, to increase the prices of their wares. The thieves in turn then have to purchase at greater cost: they need the wares in any case, and the shopkeeper's security measures prevent them from stealing the wares. So both thieves and shopkeepers are worse off than if thievery didn't exist; but, if there were no security system, thievery would again pay off, etc. etc. This is not a pure example, since it is only the thief that is homini lupus—not the shopkeeper too, as it should be in a true Hobbesian Trap.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited Jun 14 '11 at 4:32

























      answered Apr 17 '11 at 14:37









      CerberusCerberus

      54.1k2120207




      54.1k2120207








      • 2





        Love your answer, @Cerberus, except for the bit calling an arms race and the Iran-Iraq war a "Hobbesian trap." Can a massively coordinated arms race such as the Cold War, undertaken by the vast bureaucracies of 2 superpowers really be called Hobbesian? I don't think everything destructive and senseless need fall under that penumbra; to me, "Hobbesian" is more associated with pre-state societies and petty warlordism. E.g., more Mogadishu than Moscow. In fact, I think your examples, rather than being an exemplar of a Hobbesian trap, demonstrate the dangers of taking Hobbes' philosophy too far.

        – Uticensis
        Apr 18 '11 at 1:33













      • @Billare: I see your point. I agree that the organized, non-individual aspect of the parties in a global arms race is non-Hobbesian. The philosopher wasn't thinking of this when he described the war of all against all. Even so, the trap of mutual distrust causing violence is itself akin to the way Hobbes imagined individuals would act in anarchy; it is basically a metaphor, where a nation stands for a man and its arsenal for his club. It was in this metaphorical sense that the journalist intended it. Do you think such a metaphor would clash too much? I am not entirely uncharmed with it...

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:41











      • @Billare: In addition, I think Hobbes might feel that enduring war between the players of the global community of nations would be worse than having one great super power, dominating the others and thus preventing war. (He was probably not aware of the potentially pacifying effect of mutual assured destruction, as by the nuclear bombs of the Cold War.)

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:46














      • 2





        Love your answer, @Cerberus, except for the bit calling an arms race and the Iran-Iraq war a "Hobbesian trap." Can a massively coordinated arms race such as the Cold War, undertaken by the vast bureaucracies of 2 superpowers really be called Hobbesian? I don't think everything destructive and senseless need fall under that penumbra; to me, "Hobbesian" is more associated with pre-state societies and petty warlordism. E.g., more Mogadishu than Moscow. In fact, I think your examples, rather than being an exemplar of a Hobbesian trap, demonstrate the dangers of taking Hobbes' philosophy too far.

        – Uticensis
        Apr 18 '11 at 1:33













      • @Billare: I see your point. I agree that the organized, non-individual aspect of the parties in a global arms race is non-Hobbesian. The philosopher wasn't thinking of this when he described the war of all against all. Even so, the trap of mutual distrust causing violence is itself akin to the way Hobbes imagined individuals would act in anarchy; it is basically a metaphor, where a nation stands for a man and its arsenal for his club. It was in this metaphorical sense that the journalist intended it. Do you think such a metaphor would clash too much? I am not entirely uncharmed with it...

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:41











      • @Billare: In addition, I think Hobbes might feel that enduring war between the players of the global community of nations would be worse than having one great super power, dominating the others and thus preventing war. (He was probably not aware of the potentially pacifying effect of mutual assured destruction, as by the nuclear bombs of the Cold War.)

        – Cerberus
        Apr 18 '11 at 23:46








      2




      2





      Love your answer, @Cerberus, except for the bit calling an arms race and the Iran-Iraq war a "Hobbesian trap." Can a massively coordinated arms race such as the Cold War, undertaken by the vast bureaucracies of 2 superpowers really be called Hobbesian? I don't think everything destructive and senseless need fall under that penumbra; to me, "Hobbesian" is more associated with pre-state societies and petty warlordism. E.g., more Mogadishu than Moscow. In fact, I think your examples, rather than being an exemplar of a Hobbesian trap, demonstrate the dangers of taking Hobbes' philosophy too far.

      – Uticensis
      Apr 18 '11 at 1:33







      Love your answer, @Cerberus, except for the bit calling an arms race and the Iran-Iraq war a "Hobbesian trap." Can a massively coordinated arms race such as the Cold War, undertaken by the vast bureaucracies of 2 superpowers really be called Hobbesian? I don't think everything destructive and senseless need fall under that penumbra; to me, "Hobbesian" is more associated with pre-state societies and petty warlordism. E.g., more Mogadishu than Moscow. In fact, I think your examples, rather than being an exemplar of a Hobbesian trap, demonstrate the dangers of taking Hobbes' philosophy too far.

      – Uticensis
      Apr 18 '11 at 1:33















      @Billare: I see your point. I agree that the organized, non-individual aspect of the parties in a global arms race is non-Hobbesian. The philosopher wasn't thinking of this when he described the war of all against all. Even so, the trap of mutual distrust causing violence is itself akin to the way Hobbes imagined individuals would act in anarchy; it is basically a metaphor, where a nation stands for a man and its arsenal for his club. It was in this metaphorical sense that the journalist intended it. Do you think such a metaphor would clash too much? I am not entirely uncharmed with it...

      – Cerberus
      Apr 18 '11 at 23:41





      @Billare: I see your point. I agree that the organized, non-individual aspect of the parties in a global arms race is non-Hobbesian. The philosopher wasn't thinking of this when he described the war of all against all. Even so, the trap of mutual distrust causing violence is itself akin to the way Hobbes imagined individuals would act in anarchy; it is basically a metaphor, where a nation stands for a man and its arsenal for his club. It was in this metaphorical sense that the journalist intended it. Do you think such a metaphor would clash too much? I am not entirely uncharmed with it...

      – Cerberus
      Apr 18 '11 at 23:41













      @Billare: In addition, I think Hobbes might feel that enduring war between the players of the global community of nations would be worse than having one great super power, dominating the others and thus preventing war. (He was probably not aware of the potentially pacifying effect of mutual assured destruction, as by the nuclear bombs of the Cold War.)

      – Cerberus
      Apr 18 '11 at 23:46





      @Billare: In addition, I think Hobbes might feel that enduring war between the players of the global community of nations would be worse than having one great super power, dominating the others and thus preventing war. (He was probably not aware of the potentially pacifying effect of mutual assured destruction, as by the nuclear bombs of the Cold War.)

      – Cerberus
      Apr 18 '11 at 23:46













      5














      As I mentioned in my answer to a related question, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes loved the idea of an all-powerful state. And, you may or may not have previously heard of one of the most influential definitions of a state, given by the first political scientist, Weber, which describes it as as an entity with a "monopoly on violence." Therefore, Hobbes would have abhorred the idea a state without a monopoly on violence, with private security guards and such, because Hobbes regarded civilization as precious and easily lost -- a weak state, without a monopoly on violence, leads eventually to a failed state, then to power vacuum, then to anarchy, a trap that is quite hard for Man to extricate himself out of. And thus we get the Hobbesian trap.






      share|improve this answer






























        5














        As I mentioned in my answer to a related question, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes loved the idea of an all-powerful state. And, you may or may not have previously heard of one of the most influential definitions of a state, given by the first political scientist, Weber, which describes it as as an entity with a "monopoly on violence." Therefore, Hobbes would have abhorred the idea a state without a monopoly on violence, with private security guards and such, because Hobbes regarded civilization as precious and easily lost -- a weak state, without a monopoly on violence, leads eventually to a failed state, then to power vacuum, then to anarchy, a trap that is quite hard for Man to extricate himself out of. And thus we get the Hobbesian trap.






        share|improve this answer




























          5












          5








          5







          As I mentioned in my answer to a related question, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes loved the idea of an all-powerful state. And, you may or may not have previously heard of one of the most influential definitions of a state, given by the first political scientist, Weber, which describes it as as an entity with a "monopoly on violence." Therefore, Hobbes would have abhorred the idea a state without a monopoly on violence, with private security guards and such, because Hobbes regarded civilization as precious and easily lost -- a weak state, without a monopoly on violence, leads eventually to a failed state, then to power vacuum, then to anarchy, a trap that is quite hard for Man to extricate himself out of. And thus we get the Hobbesian trap.






          share|improve this answer















          As I mentioned in my answer to a related question, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes loved the idea of an all-powerful state. And, you may or may not have previously heard of one of the most influential definitions of a state, given by the first political scientist, Weber, which describes it as as an entity with a "monopoly on violence." Therefore, Hobbes would have abhorred the idea a state without a monopoly on violence, with private security guards and such, because Hobbes regarded civilization as precious and easily lost -- a weak state, without a monopoly on violence, leads eventually to a failed state, then to power vacuum, then to anarchy, a trap that is quite hard for Man to extricate himself out of. And thus we get the Hobbesian trap.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38









          Community

          1




          1










          answered Apr 17 '11 at 7:32









          UticensisUticensis

          13.2k60131231




          13.2k60131231























              1














              A Hobbesian trap vs. Hobson's choice: Both are easily interchanged and used to mean the same thing, but they don't. There's no need to wax on incessantly. The confusion is in attributing a person who controls everything in offering a service; like what Thomas Hobson (1545-1631) did in hiring out horses to young Cambridge students. He gave them a Hobson's choice to ride his stallions. Students came to his stables in the early 17th century to ride horses (but Hobson's rule was, Students couldn't "pick" the horse of their choosing. Hobson directed students had to pick the horse closest to the barn when they arrived to ride & as they approached the stables.) A Hobson's choice is simply this. It still gives the receiver the choice of what they want (students came to ride a horse; they can do that) but with a condition (they can't pick the horse they want to ride). Thus,some ppl mis-attribute or call this a Hobson's "trap" or Hobbesian trap or "choice" ...but they are NOT the same thing. In a Hobson's choice, the only other option or choice is not to ride a horse at all. That is a "Hobson's choice." Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" is a good example of a Hobson's choice.



              A Hobbesian trap is so named after Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) a British Philosopher, and an earlier poster concisely laid out the parameters. In its' basic form, it's an escalating fear (example: you buy a home. It has no fence. People you don't know start leaving things on your property, so you pay to build a fence around your property to keep people out or off your lawn. Then, you realize your home has no home security system to protect your belongings, so you buy security cameras and motion sensor alarms to further deter ppl from coming onto your property. Then, you realize neighbors in your neighborhood have been burglarized, some by armed burglars, so now, you go out and buy a gun to protect you if at some point, an armed robber comes to rob you. With all this security, you can "deal" with an unknown threat from a stranger that might want to steal from you or harm you or your family. However, what if a robber still chooses to try to rob you, and instead of coming to your house with a gun, comes with a bazooka or tank to blow you out of your house? What are you going to do? You, in turn, hire an army. You feed and house them, and pay them a salary. You equip them with their own tanks and bigger bazookas to deal with the robber's one tank in an effort to be on the superior side, and keep your property from being robbed. Simplistically laid out, this is a never ending escalation, or a Hobbesian trap. A possible alternative to this trap would be if the house owner met his neighbors when he moved in. They would probably be more careful that they or their kids not leave things in your yard and no need to buy a fence or security system. That the house owner nderstood some of a robber's needs and tried to meet them. Both here, are a much cheaper solution; and, that the robber also helped alleviate the home owner's fears by both simply knowing the other as human beings. Costs on both sides go way down, and are an alternative to a Hobbesian trap. Many countries employ trade not to become ensnared in a Hobbesian trap with other nations.



              Therefore, a Hobson's choice vs. a Hobbesian trap -- both mean two completely different things; but, both are often used mistakenly as interchangeable to mean the same thing...which they don't.






              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.

























                1














                A Hobbesian trap vs. Hobson's choice: Both are easily interchanged and used to mean the same thing, but they don't. There's no need to wax on incessantly. The confusion is in attributing a person who controls everything in offering a service; like what Thomas Hobson (1545-1631) did in hiring out horses to young Cambridge students. He gave them a Hobson's choice to ride his stallions. Students came to his stables in the early 17th century to ride horses (but Hobson's rule was, Students couldn't "pick" the horse of their choosing. Hobson directed students had to pick the horse closest to the barn when they arrived to ride & as they approached the stables.) A Hobson's choice is simply this. It still gives the receiver the choice of what they want (students came to ride a horse; they can do that) but with a condition (they can't pick the horse they want to ride). Thus,some ppl mis-attribute or call this a Hobson's "trap" or Hobbesian trap or "choice" ...but they are NOT the same thing. In a Hobson's choice, the only other option or choice is not to ride a horse at all. That is a "Hobson's choice." Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" is a good example of a Hobson's choice.



                A Hobbesian trap is so named after Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) a British Philosopher, and an earlier poster concisely laid out the parameters. In its' basic form, it's an escalating fear (example: you buy a home. It has no fence. People you don't know start leaving things on your property, so you pay to build a fence around your property to keep people out or off your lawn. Then, you realize your home has no home security system to protect your belongings, so you buy security cameras and motion sensor alarms to further deter ppl from coming onto your property. Then, you realize neighbors in your neighborhood have been burglarized, some by armed burglars, so now, you go out and buy a gun to protect you if at some point, an armed robber comes to rob you. With all this security, you can "deal" with an unknown threat from a stranger that might want to steal from you or harm you or your family. However, what if a robber still chooses to try to rob you, and instead of coming to your house with a gun, comes with a bazooka or tank to blow you out of your house? What are you going to do? You, in turn, hire an army. You feed and house them, and pay them a salary. You equip them with their own tanks and bigger bazookas to deal with the robber's one tank in an effort to be on the superior side, and keep your property from being robbed. Simplistically laid out, this is a never ending escalation, or a Hobbesian trap. A possible alternative to this trap would be if the house owner met his neighbors when he moved in. They would probably be more careful that they or their kids not leave things in your yard and no need to buy a fence or security system. That the house owner nderstood some of a robber's needs and tried to meet them. Both here, are a much cheaper solution; and, that the robber also helped alleviate the home owner's fears by both simply knowing the other as human beings. Costs on both sides go way down, and are an alternative to a Hobbesian trap. Many countries employ trade not to become ensnared in a Hobbesian trap with other nations.



                Therefore, a Hobson's choice vs. a Hobbesian trap -- both mean two completely different things; but, both are often used mistakenly as interchangeable to mean the same thing...which they don't.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.























                  1












                  1








                  1







                  A Hobbesian trap vs. Hobson's choice: Both are easily interchanged and used to mean the same thing, but they don't. There's no need to wax on incessantly. The confusion is in attributing a person who controls everything in offering a service; like what Thomas Hobson (1545-1631) did in hiring out horses to young Cambridge students. He gave them a Hobson's choice to ride his stallions. Students came to his stables in the early 17th century to ride horses (but Hobson's rule was, Students couldn't "pick" the horse of their choosing. Hobson directed students had to pick the horse closest to the barn when they arrived to ride & as they approached the stables.) A Hobson's choice is simply this. It still gives the receiver the choice of what they want (students came to ride a horse; they can do that) but with a condition (they can't pick the horse they want to ride). Thus,some ppl mis-attribute or call this a Hobson's "trap" or Hobbesian trap or "choice" ...but they are NOT the same thing. In a Hobson's choice, the only other option or choice is not to ride a horse at all. That is a "Hobson's choice." Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" is a good example of a Hobson's choice.



                  A Hobbesian trap is so named after Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) a British Philosopher, and an earlier poster concisely laid out the parameters. In its' basic form, it's an escalating fear (example: you buy a home. It has no fence. People you don't know start leaving things on your property, so you pay to build a fence around your property to keep people out or off your lawn. Then, you realize your home has no home security system to protect your belongings, so you buy security cameras and motion sensor alarms to further deter ppl from coming onto your property. Then, you realize neighbors in your neighborhood have been burglarized, some by armed burglars, so now, you go out and buy a gun to protect you if at some point, an armed robber comes to rob you. With all this security, you can "deal" with an unknown threat from a stranger that might want to steal from you or harm you or your family. However, what if a robber still chooses to try to rob you, and instead of coming to your house with a gun, comes with a bazooka or tank to blow you out of your house? What are you going to do? You, in turn, hire an army. You feed and house them, and pay them a salary. You equip them with their own tanks and bigger bazookas to deal with the robber's one tank in an effort to be on the superior side, and keep your property from being robbed. Simplistically laid out, this is a never ending escalation, or a Hobbesian trap. A possible alternative to this trap would be if the house owner met his neighbors when he moved in. They would probably be more careful that they or their kids not leave things in your yard and no need to buy a fence or security system. That the house owner nderstood some of a robber's needs and tried to meet them. Both here, are a much cheaper solution; and, that the robber also helped alleviate the home owner's fears by both simply knowing the other as human beings. Costs on both sides go way down, and are an alternative to a Hobbesian trap. Many countries employ trade not to become ensnared in a Hobbesian trap with other nations.



                  Therefore, a Hobson's choice vs. a Hobbesian trap -- both mean two completely different things; but, both are often used mistakenly as interchangeable to mean the same thing...which they don't.






                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.










                  A Hobbesian trap vs. Hobson's choice: Both are easily interchanged and used to mean the same thing, but they don't. There's no need to wax on incessantly. The confusion is in attributing a person who controls everything in offering a service; like what Thomas Hobson (1545-1631) did in hiring out horses to young Cambridge students. He gave them a Hobson's choice to ride his stallions. Students came to his stables in the early 17th century to ride horses (but Hobson's rule was, Students couldn't "pick" the horse of their choosing. Hobson directed students had to pick the horse closest to the barn when they arrived to ride & as they approached the stables.) A Hobson's choice is simply this. It still gives the receiver the choice of what they want (students came to ride a horse; they can do that) but with a condition (they can't pick the horse they want to ride). Thus,some ppl mis-attribute or call this a Hobson's "trap" or Hobbesian trap or "choice" ...but they are NOT the same thing. In a Hobson's choice, the only other option or choice is not to ride a horse at all. That is a "Hobson's choice." Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" is a good example of a Hobson's choice.



                  A Hobbesian trap is so named after Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) a British Philosopher, and an earlier poster concisely laid out the parameters. In its' basic form, it's an escalating fear (example: you buy a home. It has no fence. People you don't know start leaving things on your property, so you pay to build a fence around your property to keep people out or off your lawn. Then, you realize your home has no home security system to protect your belongings, so you buy security cameras and motion sensor alarms to further deter ppl from coming onto your property. Then, you realize neighbors in your neighborhood have been burglarized, some by armed burglars, so now, you go out and buy a gun to protect you if at some point, an armed robber comes to rob you. With all this security, you can "deal" with an unknown threat from a stranger that might want to steal from you or harm you or your family. However, what if a robber still chooses to try to rob you, and instead of coming to your house with a gun, comes with a bazooka or tank to blow you out of your house? What are you going to do? You, in turn, hire an army. You feed and house them, and pay them a salary. You equip them with their own tanks and bigger bazookas to deal with the robber's one tank in an effort to be on the superior side, and keep your property from being robbed. Simplistically laid out, this is a never ending escalation, or a Hobbesian trap. A possible alternative to this trap would be if the house owner met his neighbors when he moved in. They would probably be more careful that they or their kids not leave things in your yard and no need to buy a fence or security system. That the house owner nderstood some of a robber's needs and tried to meet them. Both here, are a much cheaper solution; and, that the robber also helped alleviate the home owner's fears by both simply knowing the other as human beings. Costs on both sides go way down, and are an alternative to a Hobbesian trap. Many countries employ trade not to become ensnared in a Hobbesian trap with other nations.



                  Therefore, a Hobson's choice vs. a Hobbesian trap -- both mean two completely different things; but, both are often used mistakenly as interchangeable to mean the same thing...which they don't.







                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 11 hours ago





















                  New contributor




                  Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  answered 12 hours ago









                  Steve B053Steve B053

                  112




                  112




                  New contributor




                  Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





                  New contributor





                  Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  Steve B053 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.























                      -1














                      This is probably a confusion for the phrase "Hobson's choice" - which basically means "take it or leave it".



                      As Wikipedia says:




                      On occasion, speakers and writers use the phrase "Hobbesian choice" instead of "Hobson's choice". They confuse the philosopher Thomas Hobbes with the relatively obscure Thomas Hobson. Notwithstanding that confused usage, the phrase, "Hobbesian choice" is historically incorrect.







                      share|improve this answer
























                      • When using Wikipedia, trust... but verify.

                        – MT_Head
                        Jun 14 '11 at 6:12
















                      -1














                      This is probably a confusion for the phrase "Hobson's choice" - which basically means "take it or leave it".



                      As Wikipedia says:




                      On occasion, speakers and writers use the phrase "Hobbesian choice" instead of "Hobson's choice". They confuse the philosopher Thomas Hobbes with the relatively obscure Thomas Hobson. Notwithstanding that confused usage, the phrase, "Hobbesian choice" is historically incorrect.







                      share|improve this answer
























                      • When using Wikipedia, trust... but verify.

                        – MT_Head
                        Jun 14 '11 at 6:12














                      -1












                      -1








                      -1







                      This is probably a confusion for the phrase "Hobson's choice" - which basically means "take it or leave it".



                      As Wikipedia says:




                      On occasion, speakers and writers use the phrase "Hobbesian choice" instead of "Hobson's choice". They confuse the philosopher Thomas Hobbes with the relatively obscure Thomas Hobson. Notwithstanding that confused usage, the phrase, "Hobbesian choice" is historically incorrect.







                      share|improve this answer













                      This is probably a confusion for the phrase "Hobson's choice" - which basically means "take it or leave it".



                      As Wikipedia says:




                      On occasion, speakers and writers use the phrase "Hobbesian choice" instead of "Hobson's choice". They confuse the philosopher Thomas Hobbes with the relatively obscure Thomas Hobson. Notwithstanding that confused usage, the phrase, "Hobbesian choice" is historically incorrect.








                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Apr 17 '11 at 7:55









                      Daniel RosemanDaniel Roseman

                      1,9441013




                      1,9441013













                      • When using Wikipedia, trust... but verify.

                        – MT_Head
                        Jun 14 '11 at 6:12



















                      • When using Wikipedia, trust... but verify.

                        – MT_Head
                        Jun 14 '11 at 6:12

















                      When using Wikipedia, trust... but verify.

                      – MT_Head
                      Jun 14 '11 at 6:12





                      When using Wikipedia, trust... but verify.

                      – MT_Head
                      Jun 14 '11 at 6:12


















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